Hi to everybody...I've heard this quite a few times here...when mentioning libertarians, it's rarely as a compliment, more an insult..or with veiled contempt...why is this? The same thing happens when liberalism is referred to by quite a few people...an insult for example is to be told you're a soft liberal...strange that...I would have thought that real liberty was what everybody should aim for, but seems not...
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semafu
- 2008-09-24 @ 00:20:42
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jenray
Pro - http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-09-24 @ 11:45:13
You're probably right about liberalism, but seems a shame as tolerance is good, but loathe the political correctness that has emerged from it...stifled human interaction and has had a terrible effect on humour...
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technomist
- 2008-09-24 @ 00:40:41
I think maybe libertarianism is seen as a utopian position and hence a bit scary. Libertarians do have a tendency to argue from fundamental principles which can make them seem dogmatic and impractical. On the other hand, they are very willing to ditch orthodoxies and social constraints which are unjustified by the social controls needed for the minimum functioning civilisation. They want the maximum space for the individual and the smallest possible state.
I don't think of liberalism as PC by the way: political correctness has tended to be intolerant of a lack of zeal in striving for perfection in thought and deed, it is an attempt to re-engineer people's natures to fit with an idealised vision of progress and (and in so doing it constrains free thought and free speech in a way that liberalism doesn't) - liberalism is more tolerant of the sloppy chaotic side of life and generous towards fun and human foibles. Liberalism celebrates the nature we have now and wishes to give it freer range rather than trying to change it to fit an ideal.-
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QueeneMab
- 2008-09-24 @ 06:33:22
I agree with this explanation to a certain extent and possibly it is the anarchic element which makes people feel threatened.
Some people definitely believe that any problems in the UK are due to a far too liberal approach to certain issues. Personally I don't agree, I am generalising obviously but I think the problems are just due to too much red tape in some areas and setting of irrelevant targets for measuring the perfomance in the public sector and too much form filling and time wasting, too much re-organising and time wasted in meetings and not enough real work.
I don't think of liberalism as PC either to be honest as PCness in the extreme can be very constraining and adopts an ideal or one size fits all approach and a company line, whereas libertarianism encourages people to say/think what they honestly feel and express it in their own terms even if it isn't what others want to hear. I think is more about the individual than about others or the collective.
I think Znethru has a point as well that some people may be confusing the two terms.
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-09-24 @ 12:18:03
It is worrying that so many people do see liberalism as excessive and want to remove a great deal of it from our society...excessive reorganization is also detrimental to our freedom, but seems to be the order of the day now in order to 'put bad practices right' - unfortunately, all it does is stifle true initiative and innovation I think...I don't think it would be any different under any of our current political parties...as money is the controlling factor, all of them want to know whether it is being spent correctly and with as little waste as possible so all who receive it from the State are under, more or less, constant supervision...trouble is trust isn't there anymore that the people in charge in the public sector can be trusted to spend it wisely...
I agree PC isn't part of liberalism, but a negative side effect of it...so associated with it in as much as it wishes to protect...another example on nannying us, and, in the end, removes our ability to react to a given situation from the heart, even if, as you say, expressing things others don't want to hear...it's produced a bland and very boring society, and a fearful one as well, I think...
I did respond to Zenthru as well saying I'm not sure many people know what libertarianism is or even think about it...and may not even know what a libertine is anymore as a rather outdated word... -
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-09-24 @ 11:58:00
I tend towards libertarianism because I think human beings should take responsibility for their own lives, but do realize that the State has its part to play in our lives, not just so excessively as it is now...unfortunately, this could mean that many people are left at the bottom of the heap with little or no way of rising above it if not helped to do so and that often requires State intervention...it is utopian but I can't see how human beings can acquire maturity without the freedom libertarianism would give them...people do tend to want to be led and that's something I don't think we're going to get rid of quickly...you hear people wanting a strong leader, and it frustrates me because I think it's the wrong attitude to have...strong leaders are often the most dangerous people because they, frequently, have a messianic fervour about them, which is the last thing this world needs...
Re liberalism...it does give the individual freedom to be themselves as you say and makes no judgement on human concepts of fun and foibles in all their variety...but, I do think that, in an effort to allow these human choices, PC has emerged to make sure that nobody criticizes or makes fun of other human beings and has had a very detrimental effect on our capacity to interact on a human level...It's the opposite of libertarianism and I find it very destructive even though well intentioned... -
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Znethru
Pro - http://www.febland.net/
- 2008-09-24 @ 00:46:02
Do you think people are confusing the word with 'libertine'?
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-09-24 @ 11:59:24
Maybe...but not sure many people actually think about libertarianism or liberalism for that matter...and not even sure whether a lot of people would even know what a libertine is...LOL
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playwrite27
- http://www.davidtennant.blog.co.uk
- 2008-09-24 @ 03:05:08
In my country, I've no doubt, quite seriously, that most Americans don't even have a clue what libertarianism is, let alone what these people stand for.
As for me being called a "liberal" (said like the word "whore"), I figure that it's not an insult coming from people who don't like us liberals because we care about someone or something other than our own selves. I figure it takes courage to care, so if caring means I'm a liberal, that's a compliment, no matter how it's said to me.-
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-09-24 @ 12:01:42
I've just said that to Zenthru...LOL...and I've had aimed at me as an insult that I'm a wet, left wing liberal...but I'd rather be that than a right wing, hard hearted fascist...
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SeasideMan
Pro - 2008-09-24 @ 09:49:36
I think technomist sums this up well. I've argued with libertarians (and Libertarians) many times in the past and they have always come across as incredibly idealistic and dogmatic, and unwilling to discuss the problems with their chosen system, just the benefits.
I dislike it as a system because it removes all restraints from greedy behaviour and removes all official supports from the defence of the week and needy. The system tends to be favoured by strong people with very valuable skills.
Tom. -
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-09-24 @ 12:30:17
Yes, I agree he has...I've actually never met a true libertarian, so have never had a chance to discuss it with them...I guess if they were extremely dogmatic about it, that would put me into a position of opposing it...LOL...idealism is all very well but reality has to play a large part in what you finally come to believe in...if libertarianism is ever going to succeed the current capitalist system would have to be altered radically so that the fat cats and the very clever didn't rein supreme. Trouble is, human nature in its present state of immaturity wouldn't be able to deal with real freedom...the primal savage nature would inevitably come to the fore again as it does in so many situations around our world...if the libertarians you've met cannot face the problems arising from their belief in that system, they haven't really thought through the full implications of it, and sound as if they fear their belief in it being undermined by anybody who opposes it...it's always the same with anybody holding dogmatic beliefs whether political or religious...at least liberalism allows for flexibility to some degree...
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-09-25 @ 17:10:53
Ah, but a true libertarian would let market forces rule. If the fat cats were simply great at business, they could get far, far richer than they are now and that's fine because the market is king, queen and pope. Ditto the very clever, and that's part of the point of libertarianism: it's a system intended to be meritocratic and favouring those who work hard. If you have valuable skills and work hard, you're quids in. If you're not too smart, and have lowly valued skills then woe betide you. It's a system which I think guarantees abuse of the poor and needy as they have no legal protection, no official assistance, no guaranteed wage, no healthcare, nothing. Perhaps charities would be set up to help, perhaps they wouldn't.
Tom.-
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-09-25 @ 19:04:41
Hmmm...I see your points here...my point was that libertarians would seek to ensure that all people had a chance to be free surely and that would mean altering the current system where market forces rule supreme to a fairer one for all...I'm aware that sounds very idealistic and probably impossible in today's world, so I can't push it strongly...market forces would have to be curtailed and here's the problem...libertarians essentially shouldn't believe in curtailing anything so it seems that, while the idea of allowing freedom for all is a good one, as you say, the less fortunate would suffer more than they are already...I think it's probably a non-starter really because, in the end, freedom is not possible for all...
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-09-25 @ 19:15:10
That's a good summation.
Tom. -
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libertarian isn't an insult AFAIK.
liberalism has become associated with political correctness and "tolerance" so is now seen in a negative light by many.