Hi to everybody...I don't think I can be the only person here who is extremely disturbed by what happened in Croydon yesterday to the two policemen. Apparently, two policemen approached a girl of about fourteen who they had seen dropping a piece of paper on the ground and went over and asked her to pick it up and put it in the litter bin. She did then deliberately dropped it on the ground again. They asked her to put in the litter bin again near her and found themselves surrounded by thirty or so youngsters who proceeded to kick, bite and punch them...they managed to call for assistance and within five minutes, it arrived so there must be a pretty fast call out capacity...the crowd was dispersed and the girl and I believe some other youngsters were arrested and bailed, while the two officers are being treated for shock and are now off work.
This is Croydon...it's not some sink hole estate. It was the High Street full of shoppers. I would like to know where the thirty or so youngsters materialized from because that's a large number to come to her aid...one witness, who didn't wish to be identified, said that, if the reinforcements hadn't turned up, she believed they would have killed the two policemen. This is appalling...and very frightening. When youngsters are prepared to attack the police en masse for something so minor, how long will it be before a policemen does die at the hands of kids...not even young adults but very young teenagers?
Hmmm...I think this has disturbed me as much as the killings of so many people recently...another died yesterday...the willingness to be savage at such a young age doesn't bode well for the future...it also shows you that it only takes a very, very minor incident to spark off seriously bad violence...for the sake of a piece of paper, two officers will now walk the streets with a totally different attitude towards the young and that's a real shame...
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jackfrost
- 2008-07-19 @ 15:01:27
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jenray
Pro - http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-07-19 @ 15:04:31
I'm pretty shocked it was a young girl as well...they've become just as aggressive as the young males...I think if the officers had they used either CS or asps...not sure what the last one is...they might well have been killed...bloody hell, Jack, I find that really alarming...
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jackfrost
- 2008-07-19 @ 15:15:17
i happens from time to time it is not a first and it wont be the last but believe me you watch when next time a cop uses his/her gas asp and watch the parents come on the news telling how their poor jonny who was destined to be a nuclear physicist but is now so traumatised he cant go to school.
when i go to work in the morning i will find out what happend from the horses mouth so to speak my mate is the superintendant over there!!
an asp is this
it replaced the old fashion wooden trunchon-
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-07-19 @ 15:25:51
Oh, I bet a thwack from that hurts..
And, you can't really use one on a kid can you...even if they're violent towards you...you're right, you'd be pilloried for it...don't you find your instincts to react conflict with what you're permitted to do by law on occasions? I hate police brutality but I also hate brutality against the police when they're trying to do they're jobs...and not always finding themselves I would of thought on occasions completely against the people they're supposed to be preventing from doing something....don't tell me every single policeman was against the miners in Thatcher's time...I know it got damned ugly, but she was such a cow and used such devious bloody methods to undermine and destroy their union and close the mines, which, of course, are needed now, but like Beeching closed the railways networks down, she closed the mines...years on both are now necessary again...damned Conservative idiots....oooh, sorry, Jack...just climbed on my high horse again...LOL..-
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jackfrost
- 2008-07-19 @ 15:46:07
we will just have to agree to differ when it comes to the minors strick god old maggie and the conservitives...the real destroyer of minors was Arthur Scargill who wa (quote) a marginalised politician out of touch with popular politics, ignorant of basic economic fundamentals, losing a long and ultimately futile miners strike, splitting the National Union of Miners, and destroying the international competitiveness of deep-mined coal. my wifes family suffered during the strike and i heard what they said about the man first hand .
but i would have no hesitation using reasonable force on anyone ...i will justify it every time. i am looking forward to being issued with a taser in the future they are far safer than the asp and better than the CS..in order of harm the asp is first asp second and ..well the taser does no harm...
but i am sure you will correct me
GBH jen
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-07-19 @ 15:58:04
oh, we will definitely disagree on that...LOL...I know who was behind the destruction of the miner's strike and I don't agree with it all...most people can only guess at what goes on behind the scenes and believe me it's dirty in the extreme...Ray may have apoplexy over music he doesn't like, but I'm the same when it comes to politics....mind you, on second thoughts, he's the same with politics...damn, is there nothing he's tolerant about? Nope, can't think of anything...HLOL...sex maybe...yup, he's tolerant about people's sexual habits and desires...
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HektorRevisited
- http://thewindhover.blog.co.uk/
- 2008-07-29 @ 12:49:20
Why didn't Scargill call a national ballot of the NUM so as to legitimise the Miners' strike? By not doing so, he was playing into the government's hands.
In the end, the Miners' strike failed because: (a) the government planned ahead and stockpiled coal; and (b) the strike had no legitimacy because of the lack of a national ballot. -
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playwrite27
- http://davidtennantsdoctor.wordpress.com/
- 2008-07-19 @ 15:17:30
Such a big cultural difference between our two nations, when it comes to youth crime, and how it/they is/are seen by the public.
In New York, police are much tougher on violent offenders, juviniles who break the law in cases of rape and murder or extreme violence, can--and often are--treated like adult offenders. They also are no longer protected (unless quite young) as far as giving out their names.
Of course, we also don't have the restrictions on media, that you lot do, with crimes--sometimes a very good thing, when it comes to jury selection and the wheels of justice--a lawyer will be less likely to become a publicity hound, and senstaionalize a case, if no one knows about it until after the trial.
Yet, this is also sometimes a bad thing, when months go by before the public is even made aware of a crime or a tragic accident. I do believe that sometimes news in the media--as here locally, the papers will tout when underage drinkers and/or their parents are arrested, within 24 hours of the arrest...this makes the public think twice about giving teens alcohol, knowing not just the teen, but they themselves, can land up in front of a judge.
Also, over here, we seem to have a much, much lower tolerance for aggressive behaviour by teens, and the general public back the police 95 percent of the time, when it comes to these wild animals masqerading as human beings.
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-07-19 @ 15:36:20
Problem is, are most of the young offenders black or non-white? So the toleration by the white people of them being locked up quickly is not questioned. The only thing we see over here of your judicial system is how to get around it unfortunately by choosing juries and judges sometimes...not sure either whether our deaths annually are remotely as bad as yours over there...taking into consideration the differences in population size...believe it or not, according to the reports on crime, it's falling over here but the deaths by knife crime aren't...that's where are problem lies at the moment, and sadly, the gangs over here that have mushroomed all over London are imitating the gangs in the USA...very difficult to break learned behaviour on both sides of the Atlantic sadly...
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grumpus
Pro - http://www.grumpus.blog.co.uk
- 2008-07-19 @ 15:25:50
Hi Jen. I blogged about this elsewhere. I too am disturbed. There are two types of people in this country now. The dysfunctional, uneducated under-class, who breed these street-marauding yobs, and the rest of us.
Too many of us still refuse to believe that this underclass exists, and cling to the hope that a softly-softly approach to "naughty children and teenagers" will make them "see sense" and get them to behave.
The two policemen viciously attacked in Croydon could easily have been killed by this senseless mob of 30 young animals. All it takes is a kick in the head in just the right spot and a brainless young hooligan becomes a murderer.
What would make my heart sing would be if 30 sets of totally ashamed parents were to frog march their brats to the police station to hand them in. Decent parents might do this. But the chavs who breed this scum are more likely to laugh about it and encourage them to do it again.
We need to get tough with these people, children and parents alike. Until we do, this situation will simply get worse. Break up gangs of hoodies and the like causing any form of nuisance, on the street. Take their names and addresses (check ID), put them on a database, tackle their parents. Sort out persistent trouble makers and put them through a form of boot camp!-
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-07-19 @ 15:49:02
The separation now between these groups now does seem to be widening...personally I've never come across nasty kids but I've seen older people lambasting them for doing nothing wrong except being there or telling them off loudly and publicly for being boisterous, or criticizing them if they're walking around as a group...I think we have to take some of the blame for making youngsters feel as if they're in the damned way, when they should be our pride and joy...if we actually treated them as if they were our pride and joy, they may not behave so damned badly, but the country doesn't do this to its young, and neither do a lot of parents...in a way, a country deserves the young it gets, and we're clearly doing something seriously wrong for our kids...I just don't feel able to lay the blame on them...they're too young to be fully responsible for their behaviour no matter what people say about them being yobbos and louts...it's us adults who have let them down in many cases I'm afraid, and it's us now paying the price...undervalued, often uncared for, and under-educated leads us to young hooligans running wild...
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grumpus
Pro
- http://www.grumpus.blog.co.uk
- 2008-07-19 @ 17:46:00
I agree it's the adults who have let them down. So who are these adults? They're the parents, family, siblings, teachers, social workers, police, employers and government, etc.
So is that it? Do we just let them all blame each other and continue to do nothing about the problem? Or do we take some action? Name some names. Be more specific about where failures occur and who is responsible and then DEAL WITH IT.
Somebody has to be accountable and should pay the price.-
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-07-19 @ 18:34:10
I agree on who has let them down, but I'm not sure now what the solutions are...how do you get kids to feel valued when clearly they don't feel it? Have we lost a couple of generations to this wild behaviour? And, if we have, they're going to pass it on to their kids...looks like the previous lost generation has already done it...it's disastrous...punishment is the only choice left to us, but it could just breed even more resentment and rebellion...sorry, Grumpus, I wish I could think of an instant solution but I can't...perhaps getting the parents together of every gang and finding out whether they agree with what their kids are doing might be a start, and if we find out they're feeling helpless, find ways of helping them help their kids to get out of these gangs....
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philghodg
- 2008-07-19 @ 17:20:24
It certainly is disturbing. There is no deterant these days.
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SloshedAndVexed
Pro - 2008-07-19 @ 21:21:51
The majority of young-offenders in Britain as a whole are not black or asian or female ; From a bit of blurry mobile-phone video of the incident in croydon that I saw I wonder if the girl who dropped the litter is black and if the other youths perceived the white policemen to be racially picking on her , though I could be wrong .
There's so many issues involved , and I suspect that some form of eventually compulsory 'national service' for some 16+ youngsters will eventually be introduced here , but which of course would'nt solve the problem of younger kids running wild : I largely agree with the the first paragraph of grumpus's first comment : And as any form of compulsory sterilisation would not be considered acceptable I'm not sure what we can do about that , though some well though out version of national service may instill some pride and decent values into some 'underclass type' potential parents ,
- Martin . -
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It's always the same segment of society - I'll be willing to bet half of them are from one parent families.
The benefits system encourages them to have as many offspring as possible. Don't give out anymore benefits after the first child and you will see this segement of society shrink rapidly.
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-07-20 @ 12:40:18
I've no idea what type of families they come from...probably a high percentage are one parent families or partners that change fairly often, but that's not restricted to one section of society anymore...it's pretty common amongst all I should imagine...it's just that some are heck of a lot more deprived than the others...trouble with your last suggestion is that you punish the good parents along with the bad...not sure that it would shrink it either, merely make a lot more kids with even less than they have already...
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I don't think people should have children then expect the state to pick up the bill.
one mistake is a mistake, more than one is a business.
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-07-20 @ 17:13:50
Child allowance has certainly risen since my days when I had mine...perhaps it shouldn't be so high for each successive child...my next door neighbour where I lived had nine and two more after they moved to the other side of the village!! Another family round the corner had thirteen...mind boggling..LOL..
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a girl i know on my parents street from my school days had 3 by the time she was 21, each one by a different man...
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-07-20 @ 23:14:56
yes, there are examples always...it's an inditement of our society that there are young girls who only feel valued if they have a guy's child...they've been made to feel irrelevant and undervalued probably for most of their lives...children make them feel wanted...that's a sad state of affairs...you may look on them with contempt but that's to miss the point of why they may behave in this way...
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SeasideMan
Pro - 2008-07-21 @ 13:53:00
I can't help but wonder if there is more to this than the initial reports seems to imply. I deplore all violence whoever is doing it but if pushed, lots of people will resort to it. So, I think I'll keep schtum on this until the full story comes out, as it undoubtedly will.
Tom.-
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-07-21 @ 14:04:10
I read in the paper that they had her in handcuffs and that's when the trouble began and that she might have been black...can't confirm that, but that's been suggested....
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-07-21 @ 14:17:01
Hmm...it will be both interesting and telling to see how this develops...
Tom. -
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- 2008-07-22 @ 16:56:01
This is just yet another in a long list of examples of how society is failing.
Where are the parents of these kids? Haven't they been taught the difference between right and wrong, showing respect for authority or don't they care?
I know if I'd done something like this when I was a teenager I wouldn't have been able to sit for a month. Saying that, I'm a mother of three children and haven't had to discipline any of them that way. I don't get it.
The police have had so much of their power removed from them it's all they can do now to defend themselves. Back in the day they were able to give a kid a clip round the ear.. now they'd end up in court for assault.
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-07-22 @ 18:26:17
I think a lot of the parents have probably lost control over their kids...they go out with their mates and they don't know what they get up to...it was different in the past...I wouldn't have dared do anything that would have got me into trouble with my parents because they were very strict, but they let us out for hours on end because I don't think it even crossed their minds we would behave like hooligans....times have changed unfortunately...Personally I don't like smacking my children because there were times when I was driven to it with one in particular and I felt absolutely dreadful afterwards...I felt ashamed of myself for doing it...fortunately, our son doesn't seem to have suffered any ill effects from the rare occasions that I did resort to smacking him...I do know, however, a situation where that isn't the case and the person in question has never fully recovered from the frequent thrashings he got from his parents...through this, I am against corporal punishment for kids...whether it's right for the police to clip a kid round the ear...I think that's equally risky though no doubt some kids thoroughly deserve it, but there's a thin line between a clip round the ear that doesn't do any lasting damage and one that could do damage...a man's fist or hand is big and a kid's head is small, and an ear can receive lasting damage if the policemen forgets to hold back on his strength...I think though that the parents of these young tearaways do need to be taught how to control their children and probably would value the help to do so...they must be worried if they know they're arming themselves now in order to feel safe...what parent wouldn't be worried by that?
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- 2008-07-22 @ 19:15:30
I think it's strange that in the not so distant past when there wasn't a mobile phone in sight, parents seemed to just "know" where their children were and what they were up to. It was perhaps more of a community thing? You were told off for example, if you kicked a ball into a neighbours garden and didn't knock the door to ask if it was alright to retrieve it.
The old "value" system didn't always work and perhaps it's an idealised view, but I'm at a loss as to how to "save" the young people today.
We also run the risk of losing that "clip round the ear" by the policeman into what I think is a very valid point; what is preferable? A clip round the ear old style or a quick spray of CS gas in your childs face, because that is basically where it's going. Ultimately knowing where your children are and who they're with is the only answer. Sadly though, many parents just don't care - anything for a quiet life while they sit and suck back a special brew.
If we teach by example, then there is no hope for the future generations. Instead of hedges and little dwarf walls around our houses, we'll have electrified fences and barbed wire. All because people have children by "accident" or want to claim yet more benefits...
Sad state of affairs really.
it is difficult...had the police officers used their CS or asps against these youths there would have been an out cry against them. that is often the case nowadays with youngsters they know they can get away with most things and if anyone touches them they will scream assault so people just avoid them.