Hi to everybody...I decided today was the day when I checked out what the Lisbon Treaty entailed because I was fed up not know what all the fuss was about, and I've been roused to overcome my laziness by discussions on other sites to do so...here are my conclusions...
Ah, at last, I've been spurred on to read it, and, from what I can gather, it's seeking the establishment of a stronger European central government with leaders and an overall representative while assuring protection for all EU citizens politically, socially and economically....It does say that EU member countries will have a say on every decision made but I also presume, any country opposing a decision, can be outvoted by the rest and so will have to abide by that decision as binding...that could be a problem I guess...it also promises to defend any EU member if attacked so I'm presuming a EU defence force would be introduced and armed accordingly...the question is...where do we go if we chose to withdraw from membership of the EU? There really is no where else to go...certainly not to have closer ties to the USA or the Commonwealth, which will soon, I would imagine, cease to exist...I think the binding of all the EU members into a bloc of countries all with the same aims, laws and rights for every citizen isn't necessarily a bad thing as none of us will go to war with each other again...always a damned good incentive to stay where we are...the problem is in the small details concerning those aims, laws and rights, which, no doubt, will be a source of concern for those still distrustful of non-English speaking Europeans in general...we shouldn't forget though that the blood of non-English speaking Europeans runs through us and that we're more closely linked to Europe than we are to anywhere else in the world...I think it's time we remembered that and try to see the benefits of a united Europe rather than seeing it as a threat to our freedoms, which, incidentally, have been systematically reduced not by the EU but by our own government...if a strengthened EU government can safeguard those freedoms perhaps it's not so bad after all...it has promised in the Lisbon Treaty to do so....and that's as far as I got in my assessment of it...no doubt people hear will tell me what's wrong with it in more detail...LOL
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Antireptilian
- 2008-07-01 @ 12:55:10
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- 2008-07-01 @ 13:34:42
Having studied the Lisbon Treaty in some detail (I have been doing a current political affairs module focussed specifically on Germany), I'm in a similar position to what Jenray has said. There are advantages and disadvantages to going ahead with the treaty but then that has been the case for every EU treaty that has passed so far.
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SeasideMan
Pro - 2008-07-01 @ 15:30:31
I agree with you, Jen. If anything Europe has increased our freedoms, not reduced them. At this time in the world I see coming together more rather than splitting up to be a good things, not a bad one. That's why I oppose devolution for Wales too.
I disagree with the poster above who is very negative about it too: there are many problems where a wider field of government is useful and international relations, rights of the individual and Climate Change are just 3 of them.
Tom. -
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Antireptilian
- 2008-07-01 @ 15:51:12
Seaside,
If you understand who is constructing this and the endgame, you would change your mind in a second.
I am not negative about integrated process, just integration that is used to exploit.
Again the words enviroment and human rights come into play. If you had any idea what the IMF has done to create famine and death in africa and asia you would realise that human rights don't matter to the power elite.
I am not ranting here, but you clearly don't have the big picture. The European soviet..As gorbachev named it.
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jenray
Pro - http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-07-01 @ 17:17:50
I know you're replying to Tom here, but you're asking us to believe in such a bizarre state of affairs - in fact one that has never appeared in history before!! You're suggesting that the IMF deliberately caused famine and death in Africa and Asia, and while I can see that feeding starving people and treating those with AIDS could be seen as pointless to continue to do so time after time for this power elite, but what do you suggest is the solution? Remain as individual nation states? Is that possible anymore? The global village is here whether we want it or not...it has only just become a reality so has huge inequalities in it, but these can be resolved over time...we have a global network link...the WWW...where ideas can be exchanged and knowledge shared....individual nation states, whether you like it or not, have fought some of the worst wars in human history...you cannot dismiss the removal of that possibility as something to cast aside because of some alleged power elite manipulating everything behind the scenes...you've bought in to a massive conspiracy theory and now, clearly, believe it totally, but I'm always suspicious of conspiracy theories, not that some conspiracies don't exist, of course they do, but it's only with the advent of the WWW have they flourished in such large numbers from the suppression of information on aliens, UFO's, John and Bobby Kennedy's deaths, 911, 711, Pope John Paul's death, John Smith's death, the moon landing...and I could go on and on...there are an awful lot of conspiracies out there, and none are proven to be anything other than what we witnessed, though I admit there's many suspicious circumstances surrounding all of the above...it's a bit like Chinese whispers...somebody starts off a rumour and, within a short space of time, it's round the room and ends up nothing like the original rumour and usually massively exaggerated...this sounds similar I'm sorry to say...attending meetings and making it public knowledge isn't going to stop it happening if it is a reality...what power do you think people really have? Have ever had? The general population don't think much about political things, they never have...why do you think they should start now? In earlier times, they had to work from sunrise to sunset to feed themselves and pay their taxes so had no time to rebel against a system innately unfair to them, a leader had to do it for them in the name of Oliver Cromwell...today, people have also got a great deal on their minds from paying the mortgage, feeding the family, paying alimony in a huge lot of cases, keeping their cars running and having a holiday...and then there's their entertainment to take their minds off all the work they have to do...not many people have the time to rebel even today...find a reputable leader who can stand up publicly and expose this conspiracy and, more important than mere exposure, prove it beyond doubt...then you might find people will take notice, but until that happens, you're beaten before you begin...
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Antireptilian
- 2008-07-01 @ 18:15:43
Jenray
I know its hard to accept, but i have been researching this stuff for over a decade.
If you feel the need to do some research yourself, Try Dr Michael Chossodovsky PHD's book "the globalisation of poverty". It covers the World bank and IMF destruction of third world economies in India, Africa, Asia and Latin America.
Because this information does not hit the mainstream media, and as you state, is always put alongside little green alien stories and a smug smirk. People use the "conspiracy" term as if it is a lie, but you will believe it without batting an eyelid, if it is broadcast on the BBC.
I have not bought into this like some idiot, I have spent much time reflecting and weighing up. In fact the only conspiracy i ever bought was the garbage transmitted through the TV.
It does nopt help when people cry "prove it" without actually investigating themselves. These days, i do nothing but research. I cannot deny what i have come to discover, and the credentials of those who support the research.
Indeed PHD'S abound. Pick a subject and check it out. I think you will be suprised. For those who cannot find the time, even an hour a week to check this stuff out, i say you are supporting the very people that are enslaving you, and that will enslave your children. Power is not taken, it is given. That is why people need to take a look and realise their own system.
No hard feelings, i am a bit abrasive, and for that i apologise,but it is because i realise the gravity of this New World Order plan. Here is a quote from one of the main architects of the NWO, for you to ponder. These are not my words, but his.. not to mention he wasn't very happy about the insider that taped his presentation and outed the information.
"We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promise of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march toward a world government. The super-national sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries" David Rockefeller
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-07-01 @ 19:34:27
Interesting last quote...and intellectual elite and world bankers....huge arrogance for the first and lethal for the second...whoever controls the money, I guess controls the world and all its citizens...we have had a debate here about this before, which is why I put up the Bildenburg list...you haven't been abrasive at all so no worries there...my problem is knowledge is something you've got to live with and, if I investigate further, I may well come to consider the arguments put forward as legitimate and I'm not sure I want to...I've waited many years to acquire a peaceful approach to my life and my husband's and we're happy together now - not that we weren't before but now we have the time to take pleasure in each other's company in ways we couldn't before and I don't want to lose that peace of mind...sounds selfish no doubt, but life has been pretty hard at times for us, and to come through everything, and reach a point where we've got something of our own, time to enjoy life a bit more, and to still consider the world and all its strange ways is something I thought beyond me on occasions, but this information I could see undoing my peace of mind and involving me on a path I'm fearful of treading on if I'm honest with you...
I don't know whether I want to investigate it further...your life is clearly going in this direction and its a path you won't be able to get off easily, but I've had to lay aside knowledge of certain things I know and, though it's influenced me profoundly, I know there's no way to change what's happening so I walked away from it and took another path...and, I really can't say anything else at the moment...-
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Antireptilian
- 2008-07-01 @ 20:07:35
Jenray
I empathise, and i know first hand the rollercoaster of emotion, fear and confusion that grabs at the very soul when travelling this road.
For myself. If i could make the choice between going back to my ignorance, and going forward into the confrontation i know will come, i would choose the latter.-
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-07-01 @ 20:27:46
I wish you the best of luck on it, and really hope you don't find it will lead you into a terrible blind alley...personally, I think we'll sleep walk into whatever is coming because that is life...evolution doesn't broadcast its presence...it slips into the cracks where an opportunity exists and changes something...could be for the better, or could lead to the extinction of the species...this group sounds similar...saw an opening and slipped in unseen and now the changes it has made can't be undone...we'll learn to live with it...but it won't last forever...nothing man creates does...the human species is resilient...unless some terrible catastrophe comes along to make the earth uninhabitable, we'll continue and survive all the megalomaniacs that want to run our world and decide how we should live and who should live...one day, they'll all be dust and their dreams the same...hope you give yourself time to relax in between pursuing this path...
And always leave yourself a get out clause if it all becomes too much without losing your sanity...the human mind is a fragile thing at the best of times...this type of pursuit can drive you mad in the end if you're not careful....sorry, this is my dire warning to you...-
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Antireptilian
- 2008-07-01 @ 22:02:32
No exit clause here, i am committed to the destruction of tyranny. There is no middle ground, and if i suffer for it, I merely follow in the footsteps of the brothers and sisters who went before me.
Fortunatly, we have a two way communication system that equals theirs. Millions have now committed to this, and our numbers grow every day.-
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-07-01 @ 23:21:45
Fair enough...then I hope your path won't be too hard...we all have to go the way our lives take us...millions!! sorry...had to ask that!! This isn't anything to do with Scientology is it?
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Antireptilian
- 2008-07-02 @ 09:05:59
Jenray
Yes Millions have woken and are spreading the word. No, this is the truth movement, and it is gaining ground at a massive rate. Perhaps enough even to challenge the New World Order-
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-07-02 @ 09:38:18
Relief that it's not Scientology...LOL...I think the world is teetering on the brink of something extremely dangerous with regard to Iran...Israel maybe goading the US into making a strike against Iran's nuclear facilities before Bush's time in the White House ends, but, as there's eighty of them around the country, it's going to have to be a bloody great strike!!! They've already said they'll do it if the USA won't...that is more than scary...as George Galloway pointed out, Iran is not some little tin pot state, it's very well armed with conventional missiles that are powerful enough to reach London, and, from that I presume, Israel as well, so I can see no sense in bombing them if the repercussions could be so great...unless somebody is trying to light a fire in the Middle East even greater than that achieved with the invasion of Iraq...A lot of what I saw in the Truth Movement web site, I've already heard but, over here, we don't hear much about it at all apart from progs every now and then...like last night on BBC2 looking into conspiracy theories about 9/11 at 11.20 to 12.20...did you see it? There's some pretty alarming coincidences in both 9/11 and 7/11 attacks with the replica dummy runs in both countries in the event of an attack at exactly the same time as the real events were taking place...and the inexplicable blasts coming from 'underneath' the floor in the tube trains in the 7/11 bombings over here...the implications here are that both Blair and Bush were either kept completely in the dark as to the true purpose of both dummy exercises or that they knew about both and agreed to them...personally I think neither of them knew about them, because the people behind both exercises knew what was going to happen in both cases and both President and Prime Minister had to look suitably shell shocked...
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- 2008-07-01 @ 18:51:14
You are being mugged and you don’t even realise.
It moves power further away from the citizen.
It moves accountability further away from the politician
where do we go if we chose to withdraw from membership of the EU?
I’d be quite happy for the UK to stand alone. We have the second most powerful army in the world – we’ll manage somehow.
if a strengthened EU government can safeguard those freedoms perhaps it's not so bad after all...it has promised in the Lisbon Treaty to do so
And if they don’t we can all march on Whitehall... i mean, catch a ferry to france, take a bus to Brussels ...
They will do what they like.
We should withdraw from the EU immediately.
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-07-01 @ 19:53:04
Okay, Sem, so now we know how you feel about the Lisbon Treaty...so you believe standing alone is a good thing...hmmm...I had a dream, oh donkey's years ago now, of a unified world where we lived in peace together, respected each other's freedom to live your life how you chose, providing you weren't hurting anybody in the process, and everybody had enough to eat, homes to live in, work to earn them a decent living, clothes on their backs and time off to relax...in other words Utopia...a pipe dream maybe, but when I saw the countries of the world beginning to break down borders and to show signs of unifying, I was glad...to me it was the birth of something positive not negative, but others saw it as a threat to their freedom and that of their nation, but freedom is such a nebulous quality, Sem...none of us have ever had unlimited freedom, our activities if they came to the attention of the security services for example would entail being observed, noted and filed away...this has been going on ever since security services existed, so what real freedom have we got...only enough so that we can pursue our lives without affecting the status quo...shake the boat and your freedom vanishes, but you'll probably never know it, but you will be watched...a nation standing alone is impossible in today's world...most of our facilities are now owned by overseas companies and corporations, large areas of Britain have been bought by foreigners, our trading partners are overseas...we can't survive without a large number of imports, and we need overseas buyers for our exports - what little we have left now of our manufacturing base...the world has moved on and we've let that go under Thatcher...what's left? The Asian countries are in the ascendancy now and we are going to be one heck of a poor country with an arms industry - yes, we can still manufacture weapons and ship them round the world - that's one base we didn't lose, and I'm hard pressed to think of much else we could call on to make us able to stand alone....if you know of any more, please let me know...
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semafu
- 2008-07-06 @ 12:30:10
I had a dream, oh donkey's years ago now, of a unified world....
you do realise that this is what the bible says will happen before the return of Christ?-
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-07-06 @ 14:37:23
Yes...LOL...after a thousand years of peace!! Some chance of that...he'll be waiting a damned long time...
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- 2008-07-01 @ 21:41:04
European integration is an inevitability.
However, it will require the passing of several generations who still hold to old concepts of nationality and culture before this can happen.
Although I recognise this process, I personally don't like it as I'm to old and entrenched in my ways.
But in 100 years time I sure there will not be so much hostility to the proposal.
As for the concept of a "Star Trek" style united world, I see that as being far harder to realise. There is simply too much cultural and religious diversity to overcome. Different groups believe and want different things. Their doctrines do not encompass compromise.
It is the nature of man to segregate himself.
XoD. -
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-07-01 @ 23:16:30
I see this as inevitable as well...we're far too far down the line now to withdraw and stand alone....strange though how you see the concepts of nationality and culture passing away after several generations for Europeans, but you don't see the possibility of a united world because of cultural and religious diversity...why can you not see these passing away after several generations as the world around them changes beyond recognition I should imagine?
I do see that there would be enormous problems achieving one world in the near future, but maybe not in a century or two...providing of course we don't blow ourselves to damned bits first...it may well be true still that it's in the nature of humankind as it now to cling to tribalism, but, in time, intermarrying of different races, colours and creeds on a much larger scale may begin to fragment the instinct to form tribes....the problem we have now is that there are so many levels of civilization in our world from the tribes that have only just abandoned cannibalism to the tribe of scientists and intellectuals who spend most of their lives living in a world of theory, and a whole gamut of varying tribes in between...to encompass all of these very different individuals making up each one into a one world system would be extraordinarily difficult, and I would say impossible to achieve... -
Thats correct. The EU is a blueprint for regional superstates everywhere. Presently we have the EU, the South American union(UNASUR), The North american union, The African Union and the pacific Union.
What does centralised power do?
It removes decision making processes further away from the citizen, and puts control firmly into the hands of the money lenders and trans nationals that fund the central body.
The origins of the EU go back to 1922 with the formation of the RIIA nad it's sister organisation the CFR. The EU has been manufactured into existence under the premise that it is designed to prevent more war in Europe. It sounds reasonable.
Considering that the same elite families that funded both sides in WW1 and WW2, are the same families intent on bringing about this superstate, not to mention the skullduggery surrounding it's introduction to parlaiment, and the marginalisation of the public in terms of information and reporting, it is a nonsense to say it is all for our own benefit.
Consider the same legislation being implemented by all governments within the EU. Consider as well the "Global citizenship" courses being fed to children in schools by Charities like OXFAM. This is about the destruction of national states, and the transfer of allegiance to an unrepresentitive plutocracy. If it all seems dandy now, give it a while, and the true horror of what they are constructing will become plain to see. It always does.
I have no problems with Europeans, and have travelled to many destinations, but this arguement is not about animosity to Europeans, as it is so often portrayed in the media, it is animosity to a hidden elite agenda to world domination.