Hi to everybody...I turned on the news this morning and heard a UN Charity worker give this exact report on the state of Gaza now...here is the full report
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/world?articleid=3848588
When an Israeli minister was interviewed about it, he stated that the missiles being fired into Israel were causing great frustration (his word not mine) to the people living on the borders of Gaza so they had to do something about it?...that has to be the most extraordinary reaction to something that is merely a 'frustration' to a few people living near to Gaza...it's clear they want to drive the people out of the area or force them to reject Hamas, but it seems beyond their comprehension to realise that what they're doing only reinforces the people's belief in Hamas and provides fertile ground for fighters against the state of Israel...I despair that this situation will ever be resolved with intransigence like that embedded in the Israeli mentality...
Have a good day...
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kaimi0achava
- 2008-03-06 @ 12:52:48
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jenray
Pro - http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-03-06 @ 14:56:04
Perhaps, but the situation is still deeply frustrating for the Palestinians...they cannot come to terms with what has happened to their land, the world is impotent at doing anything other than voicing complaints to the Israelis and they aren't listening to anybody...they probably see no reason to listen to the outside world. They've clearly ceased caring what anybody else thinks of their actions if they ever did, and so the situation goes from bad to worse and will end in a disaster for both sides I think...sadly...and yes, I have read Ranfuch's blog about Israel, if I remember correctly I had quite a few exchanges with him over it...LOL...I'm not anti Jewish, I'm not anti any race...I can't be if I truly believe we're one body made up of the many and all connected, but I do think we have to stop allowing the Zionist element in Israel from justifying everything they've done to the Palestinians and surrounding countries since they took the land over in 1947...terrible treatment at the hands of other people shouldn't then be used as a reason for abusing another group of people by the very people sinned against so badly...I think that makes sense...big hugs...
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-03-06 @ 15:11:37
Sorry, I had yet to see Ranfuch's post on Israel...he was referring in it to one of his previous posts which roused such powerful emotions, including an exchange between him and me...have read it now...will think how to respond if I do...big hugs..
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how would england react to an invasion?
we'd fight and keep fighting - as the palestinians are now.-
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kaimi0achava
- 2008-03-07 @ 18:51:02
ahh but who invaded who?
Israel became a nation about 1300 BCE, two thousand years before the rise of Islam. In 1948 Jews reestablished their sovereignty over their ancient homeland with the establishment of the modern State of Israel.
The fight for Jerusalem? Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. Jerusalem is also not mentioned in the Palestinian Covenant.
There are 2 sides to every story. And we never hear much about worse conflicts goig on in the world.
In Congo, Central Africa, 45000 people will die in a conflict you probably haven't heard of.
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Israel became a nation about 1300 BCE..... In 1948 Jews reestablished their sovereignty
and there it is.
the most feeble, pathetic justification for theft - ever. -
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-03-07 @ 21:00:12
Don't know where you got this inf from but don't think so...lot of hype I'm afraid about biblical history...whoever is the conqueror usually takes the land...that's normal practice for conquerors...eventually they too get conquered or the land goes back to the conquered people with a mixture in the gene pool of the conquerors left behind...like when the Romans conquered Britain, they left behind Romans when they withdrew and they in turn became part of the indigenous population...the Roman's conquered Palestine and eventually got fed up always being attacked by the Jewish rebels and routed them completely sending all the tribes around the world...they lost the land...they settled in other countries around the world but didn't integrate into the new cultures and societies...they believed they were chosen by god and kept their traditions and religion going by remaining separate communities within the host countries...as they valued education above almost everything else, they often made themselves available to the more powerful people in the country and, as a consequence, became more noticeable rather than less...when things went wrong, they became scapegoats and were either persecuted or killed and sometimes driven out of the host country altogether...there's always, as you say, two sides to every story. People do not know how to deal with a people who believe they are chosen by god, and make no secret of it. Integration through marriage took place clearly otherwise all Jewish people would still be Canaanites as they were originally, but they have intermingled in marriage with many other nationalities on this earth so it's only their religion now which identifies them as Jewish, and their close knit communities also...they must be one of the very few people who have still retained the conviction that the piece of land they lost in AD70 was given them by God...and have demanded it back on those grounds. If we accept the Bible's history, which is extremely doubtful now, they too came as conquerors, so have no more right to claim it back than the Romans have to claim Britain back today...and yes, I do know about the bloodshed around the world...it's terrible and deeply distressing...I never forget it....
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There have been 5 major conflicts between Israel and the Arab states since Israel was formed in 1948. Israel has learnt its lessons well it does not tolerate any attack on its land or any intrusion across its borders.
Arab or Israeli strike at each other no thought on what causalities it causes. Women and children are often the ones that are killed; neither side ever shows any remorse. They is no justification in the actions of either side and I can see no solution to the problem.
The Israeli’s are supported by the powerful Jewish lobby in America. While the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank appear to have no one to turn to, it is these Arabs who feel frustration and they then turn to violence and the circle starts again. I fear it will be many years before a permanent solution is found.
Rabbit
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-03-06 @ 16:18:11
I think my instinctive desire to protect the underdog comes out in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict...as you say Israelis are well able to defend themselves militarily and via powerful lobbying but the Palestinians seemed to have been left to their own devices by the whole world...this seems outrageously unfair to me and I cannot understand why the Arab countries especially don't speak out more in defence of their fellow Arabs...and I'm even less optimistic than you, I don't think a solution will ever be found...unless you call the removal of Palestine as a country completely and that will be something for everybody to hang their heads in shame for turning away and refusing to help...now where have I heard that before? Well, we're being constantly reminded of it...but it seems our shame only applies to one people...hmmm....so frustrating...big hugs...
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StimmeDerDDR
- 2008-03-06 @ 16:55:50
Millions of Palestinians have been forced to live in the worse areas, with no civil rights in most of their own country. Electricity, water, and all supplies can be turned on or off at the whim of an occupying power. Even movement between towns is regulated by military checkpoints. Palestinians are regularly humiliated and mistreated. It is so reminiscent of the South African Apartheid Bantustan system.
The only solution to the problems of that area in the end is not walls, machine gun towers, and bombs, but giving equal rights to all - Jewish, Muslim, Christian, or no religeon. Refugees should be allowed to return to their homeland. The thousands of Arab prisoners should be released.
I understand that it is difficult for both sides to trust each other, but the first moves for peace and reconcilliation really have to come from those holding all the power.
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-03-06 @ 18:02:40
The Israelis fear the end of the Jewish people if that ever comes about...but I don't see why that should happen...if they originated in the area in any case alongside the Arabs, who incidentally according to the Old Testament are half brothers originally...with Abraham the father of both tribes in Isaac and Ishmael...but, as per usual, Isaac was considered the legitimate son while Ishmael was the son of Hagar, the slave, and with no rights...hmmm....how far back damn it do these differences go...even more infuriating is the fact that Abraham is more than likely a mythical character thus making both Isaac and Ishmael the same....trouble is, the majority of Israelis now resident in Israel come from all around the world so their original origins are long gone from the gene pool...now they are only Jewish in their religious roots...if you take religion out of the equation, you have removed Jewishness from the equation...they're never going to agree to that...the complexity of the problem and the mind set is mind boggling...
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StimmeDerDDR
- 2008-03-06 @ 20:56:06
There are many Jewish people in Israel who do not have any problems with their Arab brothers and sisters. Many refuse to do military service. There have been demonstrations against government actions in Gaza and Lebanon. There have even been a few schools set up for both Jewish and Arab children.
Things can change faster than we think possible. Who would have imagined Gerry Adams and Ian Paisley saying complimentary things about each other even five years ago?-
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-03-06 @ 23:13:13
Yes, I know there are, unfortunately, the powerful right wing parties and orthodox Jews aren't going to sit down and speak with Hamas in the same way as Paisley sat down with Gerry Adams...there's nobody strong enough to exert pressure on them to do so as there was in the Irish situation...it's not happening fast enough to save the Palestinians...the Southern Irish were never in such a dire state as the Palestinians are, and the Northern Irish never tried to bomb them out of existence...both sides let off bombs yes, and there were demonstrations where people died, and assassinations, but nothing like what is happening now in Gaza...Southern Irish hospitals were never without electricity for twelve hours a day and their water and sewage disposal were never touched...I want to have hope for a settlement, but I'm afraid it's too late...one thing I do know, if the Palestinians are truly broken as a people, the rest of the world will not regard the Israelis with anything other than contempt for being so inhumane in their treatment of those whose land they took off them by force and then crushed utterly....
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Israel is an apartheid state, similar to what south africa was. i can understand it from the their perspective. one people, one nation.
But the arabs will wait, they have more children. The world closed down south Africa, why won’t Israel be the same? The "two state solution" is brought up for this reason - they would rather have a smaller pure israel, than a larger mixed one.
Notice that exactly the same thing was proposed by south Africa before a fully mixed democracy was established.-
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-03-07 @ 18:40:20
Yes, but what a terrible lot of suffering to get to an eventual agreement...Kenya's politicians finally decided to co-operate but it's too late, the bitterness and rage has already been sown, there were more killings today as the feuding continues regardless now of the power sharing government...if they arrived at that decision far sooner, there might be peace now...stupid people...big hugs...
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kaimi0achava
- 2008-03-07 @ 18:55:21
Saw this quote, is it true?
Anonymous quote:
If the Arabs (Moslems) put down their weapons today there would be no more violence. If the Israelis put down their weapons today there would be no more Israel.
Think about it...
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StimmeDerDDR
- 2008-03-07 @ 19:37:35
That quote avoids dealing with the issues. The Nazis said the same thing about the French resistance. If they didnt resist, then the occupiers would not have needed to carry out reprisals.
What is needed is a negotiation of equals, that recognises that all people living in that part of the world are equal human-beings, and have equal rights, and cultures that can enrich each other.-
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-03-07 @ 22:17:45
That's the problem...you must not only see your enemy as an equal but as a human being as well..something I think in the eyes of a lot of Israelis, Palestinians are not in both cases...so damned sad...
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-03-07 @ 22:11:32
Well that quote could have applied to any side in conflict with each other...so you're suggesting the only people in the world who can't lay down their arms are the Israelis?? I think it was Isaiah who said 'and they shall beat their weapons into ploughshares'..etc...that was many, many centuries ago...how long before it becomes true?...big hugs...
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kaimi0achava
- 2008-03-07 @ 23:20:54
?? What? . I felt the argument was very one sided here and that the 'underdog' should have representation. I believe, correct me if i am wrong here, but the arabian countries surrounding Israel will not recognise Israel, some, again correct me if i am wrong again, have in their constitution an undertaking to drive the Jews into the sea. Thus the quote.
I am aware about the Jewish people being dispersed to other countries and not intergrating.. (did not thnk you wanted me to write a 2 page response on the history) so what is the rule re time elapsed before they are not allowed to claim the land they were evicted from? Will you apply this rule to all peoples?
The message about a 2 class system in Israel. I dont know, is there? It there is, true, it needs to be denounced. BUT You must also include other countries otherwise you might be accused of a witch hunt or having a hidden agenda. E.G the 2 class system in the Lebenon, Palestinian have long been denied many civil rights including the right to work, Palestinian Arabs are deprived of their right to own property. Those who already own property are not be able to pass it on to their children. So, if you want to treat Israel as South Africa was by the world you must also treat those other countries the same way, E.G Lebanon.
Mm, everyone against you, feeling surrounded by hostile people, I am talking about me on this blog by the way.
..i'll take those hugs now Jen, think i need them..
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-03-07 @ 23:48:59
Don't feel out on a limb, my friend, if you believe in something strongly argue your point and nobody will consider any less of you for it...we're not here to pat each other on the back for all believing the same thing...and, as you can see, there are some very differing points of view here HLOL...providing nobody starts personally insulting somebody else for expressing their thoughts, anything goes here...
Now, back to your comment...do you consider Israel the underdog?? I find that very hard to visualize...with sufficient weapons to finish off the world, that's hardly what I call an underdog, and one of the most powerful Intelligence Services and Special Operations in the world namely Mossad...difficult to see them as underdogs...but perhaps you see the hostility of the Arabs as so all consuming plus the world condemning their methods of dealing with it that Israelis can't help but feel as if the whole world is against them...this may well be true...but it cannot be the entire world that's completely wrong...there must be something wrong with Israel's approach to their situation as well...I think everybody wants to see a peaceful settlement in that tormented area, but that will involve talking to Hamas in the end...and there is injustice still all round the world but, right at this moment, the debate here is about Gaza and Israel...
And that's it for now...and here's big hugs to you...
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Pick1
- 2008-03-09 @ 13:54:03
The Israeli state does not deliberately attack civillians, Hamas does.
The Israeli state respects the rights of the individual,it is the only Middle Eastern state to give Palestinians the vote, free speech, free movement and equal rights under the law.
Israel is a democracy under the rule of law with one of the most advanced economies in the world - they achieved this through their own hard work.
No Israeli ever blew himself up in a German restaraunt.
No country is perfect - The settlers should be withdrawn from the West Bank and a two state solution achieved.
Gandhi didn't resort to violence to achieve his aims and deliberate attacks against civillians by either side are unjustfied.
Sorry to butt in but your debate needed balancing I think.
Peace.-
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-03-09 @ 15:11:22
Welcome to the group...you're not butting in at all...all opinions are welcome...Do you know for sure that Hamas deliberately attacks civilians? I'm not entirely sure whether Israel could continue to survive without the huge subsidies it gets from the USA underpinning its economy...it's true Palestine has also received a great deal of financial aid as well and appears to have little to show for it, but oddly enough, the UN and the charities all say that the money has been distributed to the people and used for their benefit. No doubt there has been an element of corruption in the past, but now the money is being used for the people, particularly if Hamas has anything to do with it. However, with their economy all but destroyed, their utilities controlled by Israel, and their elected politicians, namely Hamas, unrecognised by the Israelis, who want the people to reject them, how can you say that anything is just in that tormented area of the world? Gandhi did not resort to violence but then he was opposing the British government and we've got a bit of a problem when it comes to attacking non-violent opposition...we tend to eventual cede defeat because don't want to be seen killing unarmed people...gives us a bad name...
Not sure Israel has a problem with that...most Palestinians aren't armed and they're dying by the score while Israelis are dying in ones and twos and infrequently...
I agree with you that the settlers should withdraw and the two state solution should be established, but unfortunately, even then, Palestine will be very reliant on Israel for its very existence and survival...also I believe Israel is sitting on Palestinian money and refusing to release it...not to mention thousands of Palestinian prisoners...balance is a very difficult thing to achieve when discussing such an emotive subject, but with all opinions being welcomed here, I think that a kind of balance is achieved in the end...please join us if you would like to participate in more of our debates... -
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- http://touchingfromadistance.blog.co.uk
- 2008-03-16 @ 12:23:34
I think the argument that Jews settled in Palestine/Israel before Arabs has to be the weakest defense standing, by that case Wales should have control of England. The creation of Israel was a catastophic political act, and giving land to European Jews was an act of Imperialism. Besides, the Palestinians are not Arabs as such but have occupied the area for milleniums, the Arabs who did invade simply subjagated the native people in the area and slowly these people adopted the customs of the Arab elite. On that point, I also believe that it would now be unfair to claim Israel proper as part of Palestinian land, so the only feasible solution is a two-state agreement, which componsates Palestinians for the land and homes they lost between 48-67. Most Palestinians then would swallow their pride and accept this compromise.
I'm currently living in Amman, Jordan, which is essentially a city of exiled Palestinians now, who have the same rights as Jordanians and Jordanian passports and I really wonder if Pick1 is talking about some other country as Palestinians here are treated equally, and many have flourished in business. In the occupied territories, however, Palestinians are subjected to hummiliating check-point searches when they leave their towns or villages or travel hours to their nearest village, simply beause of security and road detours around settlements. The West Bank and Gaza are basically huge prisons, the people there are directly controlled in every aspect of their life by the occupation, and of coarse, such situations are not allowing businesses and trade to grow, leading to an average GDP per capita in Palestine at $1,120. For Israelis it's $18,620. This hude disparity is another reason the conflict continues, and Israel are largely to blame, as occupiers they are responsible for the area.
Armed conflict is never to be condoned, but if you treat a man like an animal, he'll act like one. Israelis are responsible for many massacres, including the Sabra and Shatilla massacres in Lebanon, for them to say that they didn't attack civilians directly true, but they were fully aware of what was going to happen when they let in the Christian militias, and again as occupiers they are responsible.
At the same time, Hamas are simply tools of inter-Palestinian oppression. They may have been voted in, but they are fully aware that allowing the firing of rockets into Israeli territory will provoke a harsh reaction from the IDF, and for every dead Palestinian civilian they have a martyr and a propoganda tool. Once again it shows how on both sides the political elite expolit human life for their own politcal ends, something which continues to happen around the world, and not just in Palestine.-
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jenray
Pro
- http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-03-16 @ 15:39:59
I found this extract in the Wikipedia on Palestinians and their origins...it's an interesting page...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian
Echoing this view, Walid Khalidi writes that Palestinians in Ottoman times were "[acutely aware of the distinctiveness of Palestinian history ..." and that "[although proud of their Arab heritage and ancestry, the Palestinians considered themselves to be descended not only from Arab conquerors of the seventh century but also from indigenous peoples who had lived in the country since time immemorial, including the ancient Hebrews and the Canaanites before them."[20]
The Jewish Professor who studied the origins of the Old Testament and who's name escapes me at the moment because I've lost a lot of my bookmarks since I've got my new computer, believed that the Jewish tribes were Canaanites, several tribes of warrior shepherds... -
mm, have you read runfuchs's blog about Israel?
As I said there, how would England react to an adjoining country sending missiles over on a daily basis?
I don't think you should take the comment 'frustration' as fippant. Sometimes words and expressions translated from one language to another lose their potency.